How to setup a PPPoE Server?

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello,

For my network (there will be over 4000 customers) I need PPPoE
authentification. The customer database is a PostgreSQL.

Does someone know how to setup such network/server?

I could buy a CISCO but they are quiet expensive and I do not know,
whether it can correctly conenct to my PostgreSQL user database.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

[Seth Mattinen]

Post by Michelle Konzack
Hello,
For my network (there will be over 4000 customers) I need PPPoE
authentification. The customer database is a PostgreSQL.
Does someone know how to setup such network/server?
I could buy a CISCO but they are quiet expensive and I do not know,
whether it can correctly conenct to my PostgreSQL user database.

I can't answer your question as I've always used routers personally, but
I can tell you that a Cisco router certainly can. They don't interface
with your databases, rather you'd use a radius server which can talk to
practically anything. (I like FreeRADIUS,
http://freeradius.org/features/databases.html)

~Seth

[Wojciech Ziniewicz]

Post by Michelle Konzack
Hello,
For my network  (there  will  be  over  4000  customers)  I  need  PPPoE
authentification.  The customer database is a PostgreSQL.
Does someone know how to setup such network/server?
I could buy a CISCO but they are quiet expensive  and  I  do  not  know,
whether it can correctly conenct to my PostgreSQL user database.

I would simply use few debian boxes (cheap intel 1U entry servers) for
"natural" pppoe redundancy as pppoe gateways ( using rp-pppoe of
course)
But when it comes to decentralized pppoe server i would use mikrotik routers .

Both solutions work for me in networks up to several hundreds of online users.

regards

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Seth and Wojciech,

I am reading the <http://www.freeantennas.com/PPPoE-Server-HOWTO.html>
and the author is writing about the same...

Post by Wojciech Ziniewicz
I would simply use few debian boxes (cheap intel 1U entry servers) for
"natural" pppoe redundancy as pppoe gateways ( using rp-pppoe of
course)

He is talking about 2 MHz on the CPU and 2 MByte of memory per PPPoE
connection but it seems there is a bug if ppp must handel more then 254
clients.

Since I can have up to 6 WaveLAN channels (each arround 3 Mbit) per
location in parallel and the customers will have 3/1 or 6/1 Mbit access
results in 300 to 600 clients...

Hmmm, I have some VIA EDEN MiniITX (Dual-Ethernet 1000 Mbit, 1400 MHz,
2 GByte of memory) and I can try something.... but how to install the
rp-pppoe redunant?

I do not understand this part...

Post by Wojciech Ziniewicz
But when it comes to decentralized pppoe server i would use mikrotik routers .

I think, my VIA Eden will do it (and consuming very less energy)

Post by Wojciech Ziniewicz
Both solutions work for me in networks up to several hundreds of online users.

How many concurent conenctions do you have to a singel rp-pppoe server?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

[Wojciech Ziniewicz]

Post by Michelle Konzack
Hello Seth and Wojciech,
I am reading  the  <http://www.freeantennas.com/PPPoE-Server-HOWTO.html>
and the author is writing about the same...
He is talking about 2 MHz on the CPU and 2 MByte  of  memory  per  PPPoE
connection but it seems there is a bug if ppp must handel more then  254
clients.

It's good estimation but it may vary . It depends on hardware mainly..

Post by Michelle Konzack
Since I can have up to 6 WaveLAN  channels  (each  arround  3 Mbit)  per
location in parallel and the customers will have 3/1 or 6/1 Mbit  access
results in 300 to 600 clients...
Hmmm, I have some VIA EDEN MiniITX (Dual-Ethernet  1000 Mbit,  1400 MHz,
2 GByte of memory) and I can try something.... but how  to  install  the
rp-pppoe redunant?

Not redundant but in HA manner . Creating pppoe cluster is VERY simple.
you just add another pppoe server . that's all.
To illustrate how it will work - mainly like dhcp server - clients
that are sending dhcp request (in this case it's called PADI) are
chosing the dhcp server that answers first and in case of two, three
or more servers standing in the same rack - those servers will
"naturally" balance the load between themselves.
The only "configuration" thing that You have to have in mind is to
change the session identifier on servers. It would be for example
1-1000 on first pppoe server and 1001-2000 on the second and so on. IT
works very well. If one box becomes unstable or terminates the
connection, the rest of the boxes take it's role.

Post by Michelle Konzack
I do not understand this part...

Post by Wojciech Ziniewicz
But when it comes to decentralized pppoe server i would use mikrotik routers .

I think, my VIA Eden will do it (and consuming very less energy)

dunno via eden really ;) but probably You're right .

Post by Michelle Konzack

Post by Wojciech Ziniewicz
Both solutions work for me in networks up to several hundreds of online users.

How many concurent conenctions do you have to a singel rp-pppoe server?

200-400 normally on each pppoe-server . There's no "254" limit .

Moreover the disclaimer saying that rp-pppoe is rather developer stuff
and it isn't recommended in production is simply crap. I know at least
several implementations of rp-pppoe for thousands of users with very
nice management panel and billing ( i do have one either ;) ) .


ONly problem that i had was with shaping the traffic - my boxes are
generating iptables rules on the basis of mysql info . So two problems
were :

a) reloading iptables rules for several hundreds hosts takes sometimes
few minutes so there's need to create sophisticated rules
b) tunning iptables rules - bad iptables = bad performance , it
really can take all resources and "system" cpu load can reach like
100% ;/


regards and good luck.

[Ross Halliday]

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:30 PM
To: ISP
Subject: How to setup a PPPoE Server?
Hello,
For my network (there will be over 4000 customers) I need

PPPoE

authentification. The customer database is a PostgreSQL.
Does someone know how to setup such network/server?
I could buy a CISCO but they are quiet expensive and I do not

know,

whether it can correctly conenct to my PostgreSQL user database.

If I recall correctly the rp-pppoe server is not recommended by the
developers for production use. Here we use some Debian Etch boxes
running FreeRADIUS to handle the backend and a Redback router for PPPoE.
However depending on your load you might be able to pick up an older
Cisco on eBay (like a 7200, 7500 or something) or look at Mikrotik as
another reader mentioned.

Cheers
---
Ross Halliday
Network Operations
WTC Communications

Office: 613-547-6939 x203
Helpdesk: 866-547-6939 option 2
http://www.wtccommunications.ca

[Michelle Konzack]

Good morning Ross,

Post by Ross Halliday
If I recall correctly the rp-pppoe server is not recommended by the
developers for production use. Here we use some Debian Etch boxes
running FreeRADIUS to handle the backend and a Redback router for PPPoE.
However depending on your load you might be able to pick up an older
Cisco on eBay (like a 7200, 7500 or something) or look at Mikrotik as
another reader mentioned.

While surfing the website of Redback, I puzzeling, which Router you use?

Do you mean the "SmartEdge Multi-Service Edge Router"?

My Fiber-Optic Network (I use <http://www.gasline.de/>) is connected in
Karlsruhe, Kehl and Offenburg three times over AS routers to 1000 MBit
uplinks

I offer to each of the 4000 customers 6/1 MBit down/up stream.

Also I want to offer VoIP.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

[Daniel Hood]

As much as I hate to say it. No matter how you do it your going to have to
have a trade off between money spent and time spent. An open source solution
in this situation is going to take weeks and possibly months to configure,
due to your inexprience (as far as I can tell) with RADIUS and routing, but
it sounds like you dont have the money to buy a couple of billion dollars
worth of Cisco gear.

The best trade off, would be getting a couple of mid-range Cisco routers
(2800's with extra memory, or 3800's) possibly and having them run the PPPoE
servers and connecting to a couple of fail-over entry-level 1RU dell boxes
running debian and freeradius, connecting to your customerdatabase. Its the
best tradeoff between cost and time taken. It should only take you a while
to set it all up. Plus, if you get a support contract with Cisco, anything
that goes wrong you can just give them a buzz...

It also depends on what your plans are for expanding. Cause a completely
open source based solution wont hold many more then 4000 clients, unless you
know the software back-to-front and can make changes to the source.

Thats just my two cents.

Daniel

On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 5:05 AM, Michelle Konzack <

Post by Michelle Konzack
Good morning Ross,

Post by Ross Halliday
If I recall correctly the rp-pppoe server is not recommended by the
developers for production use. Here we use some Debian Etch boxes
running FreeRADIUS to handle the backend and a Redback router for PPPoE.
However depending on your load you might be able to pick up an older
Cisco on eBay (like a 7200, 7500 or something) or look at Mikrotik as
another reader mentioned.

While surfing the website of Redback, I puzzeling, which Router you use?
Do you mean the "SmartEdge Multi-Service Edge Router"?
My Fiber-Optic Network (I use <http://www.gasline.de/>) is connected in
Karlsruhe, Kehl and Offenburg three times over AS routers to 1000 MBit
uplinks
I offer to each of the 4000 customers 6/1 MBit down/up stream.
Also I want to offer VoIP.
Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
<http://www.tamay-dogan.net/> Michelle Konzack
<http://www.can4linux.org/> Apt. 917
<http://www.flexray4linux.org/> 50, rue de Soultz
IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) Tel. DE: [phone]
ICQ #328449886 Tel. FR: [phone]

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Daniel,

Post by Daniel Hood
As much as I hate to say it. No matter how you do it your going to have to
have a trade off between money spent and time spent. An open source solution
in this situation is going to take weeks and possibly months to configure,
due to your inexprience (as far as I can tell) with RADIUS and routing, but

My current (test) setup is my own LAN, then I go into a MiniITX with two
GE Interfaces where the second one is conencted to a 8-Port GBit Switch
on which I have connected two Alvarion BreezeACCESS VL. Since I can not
run more then 5 channels at once (because the frequencies) I will not
have more then 250 customers in total per unit. Also the total speed is
maximum 200 MBit.

And as I have read from the PPPoE-Sevrer HOWTO, I need arround 2 MHz CPU
speed and 2 MByte Memory per client.

So my MiniITX with a Via C7 1.2 GHz and 1 GByte of memory should be
enough.

Any (additional) suggestions or remarkes?

Post by Daniel Hood
it sounds like you dont have the money to buy a couple of billion dollars
worth of Cisco gear.

I have seen the prices... And If I use one of them I have to buy at
least one reserve... :-/

The MiniITX boxes including a robust "outdoor" case cost ~500 US$ and I
can have a bunch of them in reserve.

Post by Daniel Hood
The best trade off, would be getting a couple of mid-range Cisco routers
(2800's with extra memory, or 3800's) possibly and having them run the PPPoE
servers

I have a 2800 @home but I do not know, how to configure it as PPPoE
server. This CISCO stuff is <argh>!!!!!

Post by Daniel Hood
and connecting to a couple of fail-over entry-level 1RU dell boxes
running debian and freeradius, connecting to your customerdatabase.

OK, I run a bunch of Sun-Machines (Opteron)...

Post by Daniel Hood
Its the
best tradeoff between cost and time taken. It should only take you a while
to set it all up. Plus, if you get a support contract with Cisco, anything
that goes wrong you can just give them a buzz...

:-D

Post by Daniel Hood
It also depends on what your plans are for expanding. Cause a completely
open source based solution wont hold many more then 4000 clients, unless you
know the software back-to-front and can make changes to the source.

Here between Kehl and Rheinau we have between 2.000 and 3.000 home users
but if we expand, it could expand excessiv. (over 40.000)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

[Adrian Minta]

Or you could make a captive portal and get rid of pppoe all together. Try
PFsense, it has a captive portal solution build in:
http://www.pfsense.org/

[liran tal]

I disagree.
It is true that their is a trade-in between cost to the time spent to get a
project going but in the area of networking Linux is in such a remarkable
state that it is mostly the commercial companies trying to always keep up
with the open source projects.

If someone doesn't know RADIUS then whether he would have to configure a
freeradius's config file or a cisco router it would probably take him the
same amount of time.

And besides, who talked about doing all of this by himself? that's why I
suggested the daloRAIDUS platform, you get full management of users,
profiles, accounting records, graphs, etc. And it's all web-based. So
ofcourse you have to have some knowledge to get things going but whose
afraid of reading?


Regards,
Liran.

Post by Daniel Hood
As much as I hate to say it. No matter how you do it your going to have to
have a trade off between money spent and time spent. An open source solution
in this situation is going to take weeks and possibly months to configure,
due to your inexprience (as far as I can tell) with RADIUS and routing, but
it sounds like you dont have the money to buy a couple of billion dollars
worth of Cisco gear.
The best trade off, would be getting a couple of mid-range Cisco routers
(2800's with extra memory, or 3800's) possibly and having them run the PPPoE
servers and connecting to a couple of fail-over entry-level 1RU dell boxes
running debian and freeradius, connecting to your customerdatabase. Its the
best tradeoff between cost and time taken. It should only take you a while
to set it all up. Plus, if you get a support contract with Cisco, anything
that goes wrong you can just give them a buzz...
It also depends on what your plans are for expanding. Cause a completely
open source based solution wont hold many more then 4000 clients, unless you
know the software back-to-front and can make changes to the source.
Thats just my two cents.
Daniel
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 5:05 AM, Michelle Konzack <

Post by Michelle Konzack
Good morning Ross,

Post by Ross Halliday
If I recall correctly the rp-pppoe server is not recommended by the
developers for production use. Here we use some Debian Etch boxes
running FreeRADIUS to handle the backend and a Redback router for PPPoE.
However depending on your load you might be able to pick up an older
Cisco on eBay (like a 7200, 7500 or something) or look at Mikrotik as
another reader mentioned.

While surfing the website of Redback, I puzzeling, which Router you use?
Do you mean the "SmartEdge Multi-Service Edge Router"?
My Fiber-Optic Network (I use <http://www.gasline.de/>) is connected in
Karlsruhe, Kehl and Offenburg three times over AS routers to 1000 MBit
uplinks
I offer to each of the 4000 customers 6/1 MBit down/up stream.
Also I want to offer VoIP.
Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
<http://www.tamay-dogan.net/> Michelle Konzack
<http://www.can4linux.org/> Apt. 917
<http://www.flexray4linux.org/> 50, rue de Soultz
IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) Tel. DE: [phone]
ICQ #328449886 Tel. FR: [phone]

[Andrew Bevin]

We use freeradius for accounting and authenication on our Linux main
server.
For our pppoe customers we found FreeBSD to be the best solution. It has
a builtin pppoe server that works in with its ppp software. And best of
all FreeBSD's ppp service can authenicate to a radius server out of the box.

*Andrew Bevin*
The Packing Shed Limited
www.packingshed.co.nz <http://www.packingshed.co.nz>
ph: 0800323002

Post by liran tal
I disagree.
It is true that their is a trade-in between cost to the time spent to
get a project going but in the area of networking Linux is in such a
remarkable state that it is mostly the commercial companies trying to
always keep up with the open source projects.
If someone doesn't know RADIUS then whether he would have to configure
a freeradius's config file or a cisco router it would probably take
him the same amount of time.
And besides, who talked about doing all of this by himself? that's why
I suggested the daloRAIDUS platform, you get full management of users,
profiles, accounting records, graphs, etc. And it's all web-based. So
ofcourse you have to have some knowledge to get things going but whose
afraid of reading?
Regards,
Liran.
As much as I hate to say it. No matter how you do it your going to
have to have a trade off between money spent and time spent. An
open source solution in this situation is going to take weeks and
possibly months to configure, due to your inexprience (as far as I
can tell) with RADIUS and routing, but it sounds like you dont
have the money to buy a couple of billion dollars worth of Cisco
gear.
The best trade off, would be getting a couple of mid-range Cisco
routers (2800's with extra memory, or 3800's) possibly and having
them run the PPPoE servers and connecting to a couple of fail-over
entry-level 1RU dell boxes running debian and freeradius,
connecting to your customerdatabase. Its the best tradeoff between
cost and time taken. It should only take you a while to set it all
up. Plus, if you get a support contract with Cisco, anything that
goes wrong you can just give them a buzz...
It also depends on what your plans are for expanding. Cause a
completely open source based solution wont hold many more then
4000 clients, unless you know the software back-to-front and can
make changes to the source.
Thats just my two cents.
Daniel
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 5:05 AM, Michelle Konzack
Good morning Ross,

Post by Ross Halliday
If I recall correctly the rp-pppoe server is not recommended

by the

Post by Ross Halliday
developers for production use. Here we use some Debian Etch

boxes

Post by Ross Halliday
running FreeRADIUS to handle the backend and a Redback

router for PPPoE.

Post by Ross Halliday
However depending on your load you might be able to pick up

an older

Post by Ross Halliday
Cisco on eBay (like a 7200, 7500 or something) or look at

Mikrotik as

Post by Ross Halliday
another reader mentioned.

While surfing the website of Redback, I puzzeling, which Router you use?
Do you mean the "SmartEdge Multi-Service Edge Router"?
My Fiber-Optic Network (I use <http://www.gasline.de/>) is connected in
Karlsruhe, Kehl and Offenburg three times over AS routers to
1000 MBit
uplinks
I offer to each of the 4000 customers 6/1 MBit down/up stream.
Also I want to offer VoIP.
Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
#####################
<http://www.tamay-dogan.net/> Michelle Konzack
<http://www.can4linux.org/> Apt. 917
<http://www.flexray4linux.org/> 50, rue de Soultz
Strasbourg/France
IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com <http://irc.icq.com>)
Tel. DE: [phone]
ICQ #328449886 Tel. FR: +33 6
61925193

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Andrew,

Post by Andrew Bevin
We use freeradius for accounting and authenication on our Linux main
server.
For our pppoe customers we found FreeBSD to be the best solution. It has
a builtin pppoe server that works in with its ppp software. And best of
all FreeBSD's ppp service can authenicate to a radius server out of the box.

How stable is the BSD PPPoE Server?

I have to run it on a Sun Fire X4150 with two 10 GE interfaces and MANY
users, speak, over 5000 and of course, I have to use more then one
machine... Memory and CPU spead is no problem, but finding a machine
with two 10 GE ports... The Sun Fire X4100M2 would be enough, but can
not have Dual 10 GE and has of course only a singep PSU and not redunant

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

[Andrew Bevin]

Hi Michelle,

You would have to check hardware compatibility with the NIC and FreeBSD.
We only have 350 users, but we complicate things by running 30 VLANS on
the one NIC with separate pppoe server instances for each.

We had issues with the number of network interfaces running at one time
with FreeBSD 5. It seemed to max out at 254 interfaces tho no mention of
that being a limit anywhere.

We currently run FreeBSD 6.2 which will run fine with more that 254
interfaces active. Occasionally the server reboots, it doesnt seem to be
related to load, we havent isolated the cause, but it doesnt do any
harm, the server is back within a minute. Not what you want to hear tho.

*Andrew Bevin*
The Packing Shed Limited
www.packingshed.co.nz <http://www.packingshed.co.nz>
ph: 0800323002

Post by Michelle Konzack
Hello Andrew,

Post by Andrew Bevin
We use freeradius for accounting and authenication on our Linux main
server.
For our pppoe customers we found FreeBSD to be the best solution. It has
a builtin pppoe server that works in with its ppp software. And best of
all FreeBSD's ppp service can authenicate to a radius server out of the box.

How stable is the BSD PPPoE Server?
I have to run it on a Sun Fire X4150 with two 10 GE interfaces and MANY
users, speak, over 5000 and of course, I have to use more then one
machine... Memory and CPU spead is no problem, but finding a machine
with two 10 GE ports... The Sun Fire X4100M2 would be enough, but can
not have Dual 10 GE and has of course only a singep PSU and not redunant
Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

[Michelle Konzack]

Hi Andrew,

Post by Andrew Bevin
Hi Michelle,
You would have to check hardware compatibility with the NIC and FreeBSD.
We only have 350 users, but we complicate things by running 30 VLANS on
the one NIC with separate pppoe server instances for each.
We had issues with the number of network interfaces running at one time
with FreeBSD 5. It seemed to max out at 254 interfaces tho no mention of
that being a limit anywhere.
We currently run FreeBSD 6.2 which will run fine with more that 254
interfaces active. Occasionally the server reboots, it doesnt seem to be
related to load, we havent isolated the cause, but it doesnt do any
harm, the server is back within a minute. Not what you want to hear tho.

I will try to ask the FreeBSD list... must find and subscribe to it

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh]

Post by Michelle Konzack
machine... Memory and CPU spead is no problem, but finding a machine
with two 10 GE ports... The Sun Fire X4100M2 would be enough, but can
not have Dual 10 GE and has of course only a singep PSU and not redunant

Wel, it is trivial to get redundant PSUs, LOTS of ECC RAM and CPU power, and
two 10GBE interfaces in 1U rack space, if you go Intel. Supermicro has them
cheap, Dell and IBM have them less cheap.

And it will run FreeBSD a lot easier than a Sun Fire, I think (but I never
tried to get FreeBSD running on Sun hardware).
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh

[liran tal]

Although this isn't related directly to setting up PPPoE, as I stated in my
previous email -
if you haven't implemented a radius server (freeradius) by now then you are
most encouraged
to do that.

When you have that you get a central point of authentication for which you
can now fully administer
with a web application GUI tool which provides you with easy management and
so much more than
just management.

That web tool is called daloRADIUS.


Regards
Liran.


On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Michelle Konzack <

Post by Michelle Konzack
Hello,
For my network (there will be over 4000 customers) I need PPPoE
authentification. The customer database is a PostgreSQL.
Does someone know how to setup such network/server?
I could buy a CISCO but they are quiet expensive and I do not know,
whether it can correctly conenct to my PostgreSQL user database.
Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
<http://www.tamay-dogan.net/> Michelle Konzack
<http://www.can4linux.org/> Apt. 917
<http://www.flexray4linux.org/> 50, rue de Soultz
IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) Tel. DE: [phone]
ICQ #328449886 Tel. FR: [phone]